Tuesday, September 28, 2010

Saving Cornelius: Acts 10 and Water Baptism

Despite what the Bible clearly teaches about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, some proponents of baptismal regeneration (not all of them) reject the truth of Scripture and unjustifiably claim that Cornelius' household was not saved when they received the Holy Spirit in Acts 10, that it was not until they were baptized in water that they were saved. I am convinced, to a certain extent at least, that it will be fruitless to discuss water baptism or virtually any other doctrine with someone who in this way refuses to conform their beliefs to Scripture. It is evident that no matter what the Bible says, these people will instead adhere blindly to their traditions, their "sacred cows," as it were, and one is left to wonder if one should throw their proverbial pearls before swine.

In episode 4 of the Theopologetics Podcast I demonstrated that Cornelius and his household was, in fact, saved by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized in water. For those who have not listened or are unable to, I will demonstrate this fact here in writing.

BAPTISM IN THE HOLY SPIRIT

Let's first look at what is explicitly said to have happened to these Godfearers. Having each received visions from God, Cornelius and Peter meet in Caesarea (Acts 10:1-33). Peter preaches the gospel to Cornelius and his household, explaining that he had been shown that God does not show partiality; that peace through Jesus Christ is available to all, both Jew and Gentile; that Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power; that Peter and the Apostles witnessed His miracles and death on the cross; that they saw Him resurrected after the third day; and that they were ordered to preach this gospel to all, through which everyone who believes is forgiven of their sins (Acts 10:34-43). It is as he is speaking those last words that something amazing happens:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 'Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?' 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days." (Acts 10:44-48)

Notice that the reason Peter said these Godfearers could not be refused water baptism is because they had received the same gift of the Holy Spirit the Apostles had received, hearkening back to the day of Pentecost in which the Holy Spirit filled them, manifesting Himself through the gift of tongues (Acts 2:1-4). We know that what the Apostles experienced was something called "baptism in the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:4-5). And after what he witnessed happen to Cornelius, Peter explains to the other Apostles that this is, in fact, the same thing that had happened to Cornelius' house (Acts 11:15-17).

MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND

Before we look more closely at just what baptism in the Holy Spirit is, we should look at whom experiences it. Some adherents to baptismal regeneration claim that only some Christians experience it (even if it's available to all of them), others that it disappeared with this first generation of Christians. However, this is simply not the case at all. On the day of Pentecost, after receiving the baptism in the Holy Spirit, the Jews in attendance ask each other what they witnessed meant, surmising that perhaps they were drunk (Acts 2:6-13). Peter goes on to explain exactly what it meant:

"14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: "Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words. 15 'For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 17 'AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS; 18 EVEN ON MY BONDSLAVES, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL IN THOSE DAYS POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT And they shall prophesy.(Acts 2:14-18)

Peter quotes the prophecy recorded in Joel 2:28-32, which had been made in a time when the Holy Spirit operated within the Old Covenant community in such a way as to manifest Himself through gifts given only to some. For example, in Numbers 11:16-17,25-29 God tells Moses He will gift seventy elders from Israel with the same gift of the Holy Spirit previously given only to Moses, and when two of these men continue to manifest the gift, Joshua tells Moses he should restrain them. Moses responds saying, "Would that all the LORD's people were prophets, that the LORD would put His Spirit upon them!"

So Joel's prophecy foretold of a time when the Holy Spirit would operate among the New Covenant community differently than He had in the Old Covenant one. Whereas in the past the gift of the Holy Spirit was given only to some, in the New Covenant He is given to all Christians. Hence, Peter says to the Jews at Pentecost, "37 Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 38 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself" (Acts 2:38-39, with discussions concerning the importance of baptism being held elsewhere here at my blog). You see, this gift is not something given to only some Christians, nor is it a gift that was given only for a time; in either case, the Holy Spirit would be operating in the New Covenant community no differently than He had in the Old Covenant one. The gift of the Holy Spirit is experienced by all who are in Christ.

FOR ALL WHO ARE FAR OFF

However, it was not clear to the Apostles when the New Covenant was to be available to all people. By the time of Pentecost, they knew that Jews and proselytes (Gentile converts to Judaism) were welcome into the Covenant, and that the gift of the Holy Spirit was for all Jewish and proselyte believers in Jesus Christ (Acts 2:5-11), but it was not clear when other peoples would be welcome in. Some time later, Philip preaches the gospel to some Samaritans, who receive and believe the gospel preached to them, but it is not until Peter and John arrive and pray for the Samaritans that they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:12-17).

Some have interpreted this to mean that the authority of the Apostles was necessary to receive this gift through the laying on of hands, and that therefore it died out with the Apostles. This, however, goes contrary to what we've already seen in Peter's application of Joel's prophecy at Pentecost. The better intepretation of this text, although not explicitly stated, is that God waited to give the gift of the Holy Spirit until Peter and John were present so that it would serve as a testimony to them that the boundaries of the New Covenant community had opened to Samaritans, and was no longer restricted to only Jews and proselytes.

You see, the Samaritans were Jews by descent, as my friend David and I explained in episode 6 of my podcast. However, they were not part of the Jewish community, and believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to a certain extent but did not follow the Mosaic covenant, and were influenced by paganism. Peter and John, then, were present to witness the opening up of the New Covenant community to Samaritans, confirming Peter's application of Joel's prophecy.

This is exactly what we see with Cornelius in Acts 10. Cornelius and his household were "Godfearers," Gentiles who adopted much of Jewish belief and practice, fellowshipping with the Jewish community, but not completely converted to Judaism (and thus not proselytes). God gifts them with the Holy Spirit in Peter's presence to confirm the still further broadening of the New Covenant community. Whereas it had hitherto been restricted to Jews, proselytes and Samaritans who believed in Jesus, Peter witnessed the beginning of the inclusion of Gentiles--though specifically Godfearing Gentiles.

Later, Paul likewise witnesses the still further broadening of the gift of the Holy Spirit to all Gentile believers in Jesus when he happens upon some Ephesian Gentiles who, after being baptized in the name of Christ and after having Paul's hands laid on them, receive the same gift which had previously been received by the Jews and proselytes, Samaritans and Gentile Godfearers (Acts 19:1-7). Like the Apostles and Cornelius' household, these Ephesian new believers manifest the presence of the Holy Spirit through the same gift of tongues (and, in this case, prophecy).

Luke's book of Acts, then, serves as one progressive illustration of the truth of Joel's prophecy as applied by Peter at Pentecost. In the Old Covenant community the gift of the Holy Spirit is given only to some, but in the New Covenant community He is given to all those who place their faith in Jesus Christ. First, the Jews and proselytes. Later, the Samaritans, followed by Gentile Godfearers. Finally, other Gentile believers. The gift of the Holy Spirit was not given only to some, nor did it die out with the Apostles. He is, indeed, for all who are far off.

VARIETIES OF GIFTS, BUT THE SAME SPIRIT

Now, some claim that what the Apostles, Godfearers and Ephesians experienced was something not normative, something above and beyond anything most other Christians experience. They point to the fact that tongues appear only to be spoken in these three places throughout the book of Acts, and argue that therefore these were unique outpourings of the Holy Spirit not to be expected to happen to all Christians. As I've already demonstrated, this goes contrary to the clear application of Joel's prophecy by Peter at Pentecost. However, there's more proof that this view is simply false:

"4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. 12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many." (1 Corinthians 12:4-14)

Notice that here Paul tells the Corinthians that there are a variety of gifts, including but not limited to tongues like those spoken by the Apostles and Cornelius' household, and that within each Christian the Holy Spirit manifests Himself differently. While the gifts of tongues, healing and miracles are more obvious and miraculous, the gifts of wisdom, knowledge and faith are not quite so obvious. Nevertheless, they are all manifestations of the same indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. However we interpret the "baptism" spoken of here, what is clear is that all genuine Christians "were all made to drink of one Spirit" into the one body of Christ.

Also, it should be noted that this list of gifts is not exhaustive. It is merely a list of examples of gifts through which the Holy Spirit manifests Himself in every Christian. Paul elsewhere speaks of the gifts of service, teaching, exhortation, giving, leading and mercy (Romans 12:5-8). These gifts are here said to "differ according to the grace given to us," and despite that we're each given different gifts, Paul says "we, who are many, are one body in Christ," and he gives the same analogy of a body and its members which he gives in 1 Corinthians 12.

A SPIRIT OF ADOPTION AS SONS

So we've seen that Scripture clearly teaches that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who manifests Himself through a variety of gifts is given to all who are in the body of Christ. Some speak (or spoke) in tongues, others prophesy, others heal and still others perform miracles. But others manifest more seemingly mundane gifts like teaching, giving, wisdom and knowledge. Beyond the manifestations of the Holy Spirit's indwelling presence, however, what else does His presence within us mean?

"9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you...15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him." (Romans 8:9-11,15-17)

Peter was amazed when Cornelius "received the Holy Spirit." Here, Paul says Christians have received the Holy Spirit, and says His presence means we belong to Christ. He says the Holy Spirit is a spirit of adoption, that by Him we have the right to call God our Father. He says that the Holy Spirit testifies within us that we are children of God, and that we will be glorified with Christ. There is no way around it; Cornelius and his household belonged to Christ, were adopted as and inwardly testified to be sons of God, and promised glorification with Christ.

GAVE TO US THE SPIRIT AS A PLEDGE

The proof doesn't end there. Paul wrote to the Corinthians, saying,

"4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge." (2 Corinthians 5:4-5)

The Holy Spirit was given to us as a pledge. The word "give" there is the Greek δίδωμι (didomi). That word is also used by Jesus Christ Himself in Matthew 7:7-8 where He says, "Ask, and it will be given [δίδωμι] to you...For everyone who asks receives." That word, "receives," is the same Greek word λαμβάνω (lambano) used in the other passagese we've looked at which speak of "receiving" the Holy Spirit. Thus, being "given" the Holy Spirit is the same as "receiving" the Holy Spirit.

So Paul here tells us that receiving the Holy Spirit is receiving a pledge, a pledge of that purpose for which we were prepared. What was the purpose for which we were prepared? A look at the context of 2 Corinthians 5 reveals one of only two possibilities: the intermediate state in heaven with God, awaiting the resurrection, or the resurrection itself. All Christians receive the Holy Spirit as a promise that they will be in the very presence of God.

This "pledge" language is used by Paul earlier in this letter: "21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, 22 who also sealed us and gave [δίδωμι] us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge" (2 Corinthians 1:21-22). Paul likewise uses this language when writing to the Ephesians:

"13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given [δίδωμι] as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory." (Ephesians 1:13-14)

You see, being "given" the Holy Spirit, that is "receiving" the Holy Spirit, seals us in Jesus Christ with the promise and pledge of inheritance as sons of God, guaranteed redemption to the praise of His glory. There is simply no way around it; Cornelius and his household received this promise before being baptized in water.

PEARLS BEFORE SWINE

I certainly am in no way likening anybody to swine, but what it boils down to is this. Regardless of one's position on baptism, if one denies the clear and simple fact that, before their baptism in water, Cornelius and his household were saved by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Who promised them redemption and resurrection and sealed them as children of God--if someone denies this, they demonstrate that they are unwilling to conform their beliefs to Scripture. Why in the world would I attempt to reason from Scripture with such a person concerning any other passage or doctrine? It becomes painfully evident that such a person refuses to be convinced away from their traditions, even by the very Word of God.

So, whatever the implications of Acts 10 pose to one's view of baptism, the Bible is clear: Cornelius and his household were saved in Christ before their baptism in water. If you, reader, do not agree, I will happily discuss this passage at length with you, but I'll discuss little else, for it would be clear that it would be fruitless.

12 comments:

  1. (You said)
    So Joel's prophecy foretold of a time when the Holy Spirit would operate among the New Covenant community differently than He had in the Old Covenant one.

    That is not exactly accurate. It is not that the HS worked "differently" per se, it is that it was given to everyone as opposed to just given to some. It is still the "same" HS that has always existed since the beginning of time. Also, not all receive the "same" gifts of the spirit either. So I would say in that way it is working "differently" in some than in others in the NT.

    Does anyone receive tongues of fire and speak in tongues today. NO.
    Does anyone have hands layed on them and automatically begin prophesying today. NO.
    So there are certain "gifts" of the Spirit that have died out since Apostolic times.

    In an earlier post you admitted that the Apostles were probably saved prior to Pentecost and that the Samaratins were saved prior to receiving the HS. So that would seem to prove that the HS can operate in unique ways apart from being salvific.

    As far as Cornelius, if he was saved prior to baptism, that seems to be of no significant consequence. God chose to save him in this way which is fine. That should have no effect one way or the other with other verses concerning salvation.

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  2. What I meant by "differently" was just how you put it: He is given to all believers, not just some. And I made the very point in this post that to each is given different gifts.

    However, they are all manifestations of the same, saving, indwelling of the Holy Spirit, as I demonstrated. Tongues and prophesy are just two of many gifts, but all are manifestations of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Your attempt to segregate them from the rest of the gifts simply fails.

    As for whether or not those two particular gifts are in operation today, I simply don't know. I'm open to the possibility that those are gifts the Holy Spirit used in the NT era to expand the boundaries of the New Covenant community. However, whether they are in operation today or not, the simple, undeniable fact of the matter is that they, like the other gifts, are manifestations of the saving, indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

    The Apostles and the Samaritans were regenerated by the Spirit before being baptized in Him, sure. However, I already demonstrated that the Holy Spirit fell upon the Church in stages: first the Apostles and Jews and proselytes; then the Samaritans; then the Godfearers; and finally the rest of the Gentile believers. The fact that the Apostles and the Samaritans were regenerated before baptism in the Holy Spirit does not change the fact that all Christians are regenerated post-Acts 19 through the baptism in the Holy Spirit, which is the saving, indwelling of Him. I demonstrate all of this in the post.

    As for the implications of Cornelius, we can discuss those, but in another post. My point with this one is to demonstrate that denying their salvation prior to water baptism is illustrative of one's defiance of the Word of God.

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  4. Here is how one person who denies the clear biblical teaching, that Cornelius' household was saved before their water baptism, attempts to refute the Bible:

    To repeat what you have failed to answer, your eisegesis into Acts 10 is in part based upon Acts 2, quoting Joel 2. Yes, both of those passages speak of the baptism of the Holy Spirit AND salvation. Unfortunately for your interpretation, those passages do not teach that salvation is connected with baptism of the Holy Spirit, but to something else - calling on the Name of the Lord. And as Acts 2 & 22:16 makes clear, the way you call on the Name of the Lord is to be baptized in the Name of the Lord for the forgiveness of sins - NOT baptism of the Holy Spirit. And given that we KNOW Peter taught baptism was for the forgiveness of sins and salvation, that says something about why Peter would have baptized the Gentiles after they were baptized by the Holy Spirit.

    Note that there is no addressing of the primary points in the exegesis above. The fact that Peter's application of Joel in Acts 2 proves that baptism in the Holy Spirit is for all Christians is implicitly acknowledged in this response, I think. However, look closely at what is missing.

    First, the response does not address the fact that the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in the form of tongues is not the result of some separate kind of inner work of the Holy Spirit above and beyond the saving, indwelling of the Holy Spirit. There is no attempt whatsoever to respond to the fact that 1 Corinthians 12 includes tongues as just one of many kinds of gifts which are manifested by the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

    Second, the response does not address the fact that the gifts manifested by the Holy Spirit are said in 1 Corinthians 12 to be manifested through members of the one body of Christ.

    Third, the response does not address the fact that Romans 8:9-11,15-17 says that those who have "received" the Holy Spirit--just as Peter said of Cornelius before his household's baptism in water--have received a spirit of adoption as sons, testifying within us that we are children of God and fellow heirs with Christ.

    Fourth, the response does not address the fact that the Greek word δίδωμι meaning "give," linked to λαμβάνω meaning "receive" in Matthew 7:7-8, is used in 2 Corinthians 5:4-5 where those who have been given the Holy Spirit (and thus have received Him, just as Cornelius did before his baptism in water) have been given a promise of either heaven or resurrection, depending on one's interpretation.

    Fifth, the response does not address the fact that the use of δίδωμι in 2 Corinthians 1:21-22 shows that those who have been given the Holy Spirit (and thus have received Him, just as Cornelius did before his baptism in water) have been sealed and established in Christ and given a pledge.

    Sixth, the response does not address the fact that the use of δίδωμι in Ephesians 1:13-14 shows that those who have been given the Holy Spirit (and thus have received Him, just as Cornelius did before his baptism in water) have been sealed in Christ with a pledge of our inheritance and a promise of redemption.

    You see, as this particular failed response to the clear biblical teaching demonstrates, those who deny Cornelius and his household were saved before water baptism must reject the authority of the above passages from the breathed-out Word of God, and instead eisegete into Acts 10 their own presumed understanding of baptism. As I rhetorically asked in the conclusion to the above article, "Why in the world would I attempt to reason from Scripture with such a person concerning any other passage or doctrine?"

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  5. In case my point is not clear, despite the false claim made in the cited response, salvation IS connected with baptism in the Holy Spirit, in the sense that: anybody baptized in the Holy Spirit is given one or more of a variety of gifts including tongues by the indwelling Holy Spirit, Who seals one as a child of God, establishes one in Christ as a member of His body, and serves as a promise of resurrection and redemption. There simply is no way around it; Cornelius and his household were saved before their baptism in water.

    Those who disagree with one another can certainly debate the impact that has on their respective interpretation of texts which speak of calling on the name of the Lord and of immersion into water. However, such a debate has little hope of being fruitful if one participant in the debate refuses to conform to the biblical testimony of Acts 10.

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  6. Chris, it is all about context.

    You pulled my quote out of context. Of course I don't address every single argument you've made. That wasn't the intention of that post.

    The paragraph immediately preceding it was this:

    I've stopped trying to argue Acts 10 because you have already declared it is impossible for it to mean anything other than what you eisegete into it. You can't even admit the possibility your view is wrong, as it is "absolutely" true. You can't use reason against a "true-believer."

    Then the paragraph you quoted, which was immediately followed by this paragraph:

    At the very least, anyone with a hint of objectivity would have to admit this casts some doubt on your interpretation of Acts 10. But not you. All that Scripture and common sense is completely irrelevant because you are "absolutely" correct.

    The point wasn't to decisively refute every argument you have ever made. The point was to show evidence that there is at least the possibility your argument could be incorrect. If you are not willing to concede even the possibility of being wrong, why should I take the time to engage you on every point?

    The fact is, I have an ongoing study on baptism on my blog, for those who would like to see what the Bible says about baptism, rather than studying what baptism MUST or MUST NOT mean.

    I fully intend to address at least many of the passages you bring up, but I have diverted from my ongoing study for various issues that have come up. I figure too many blogs on one topic can wear people out, so I try to space it out some. Right now, I am trying to get my book on Revelation finalized [in which I believe you will find much to agree and disagree with ;^) ], so it will probably be some time before I get back to posting on baptism.

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  7. I don't agree that we (everybody in our generation) are given the HS the same way Cornelius and those with him were. I received the HS upon water baptism. I cannot agree that I was saved or indwelt prior to my baptism, but I AM ABSOLUTELY SURE I am indwelt having risen from the water. The reason I was baptized in water was for (eis meaning into) the forgiveness of sins. Why were you Baptized?

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  8. Aaron, I didn't say we must believe we today receive the Holy Spirit before baptism just as Cornelius did. That's a debate we can certainly have. What I've demonstrated, however, is that we all do receive the baptism in the Holy Spirit, and that said indwelling means we are saved, and therefore Cornelius was saved before his water baptism.

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  9. "You pulled my quote out of context. Of course I don't address every single argument you've made. That wasn't the intention of that post...The point wasn't to decisively refute every argument you have ever made."

    You said at a friend's blog that, "I also directly responded to your argument for Acts 10, showing how the passages you cite (Acts 2 & Joel 2) actually support my view, not yours. You've never responded to that, either." Therefore, your claim was that you did, in fact, respond to my argument, and that I didn't in turn respond. But I pointed out in the original thread that the argument was not based solely on Acts 2 and Joel 2, but also 1 Corinthians 12, Romans 8, 2 Corinthians 5, 2 Corinthians 1 and Ephesians 1, as explained in further detail above. My argument stands, unresponded to, despite your claim it was responded to.

    "The point was to show evidence that there is at least the possibility your argument could be incorrect."

    You have shown no such evidence, because you have not addressed the passages I pointed to in that thread and the above article, which demonstrate what receiving the Holy Spirit does. Simply eisegeting your understanding of water immersion into Acts 10 does not constitute evidence that I might be incorrect.

    "If you are not willing to concede even the possibility of being wrong, why should I take the time to engage you on every point?"

    I am open to the possibility I'm wrong, but you have to demonstrate that I am, and although you say you "fully intend to address at least many of the passages [I] bring up" (I certainly hope it will be all of them, since they are all relevant), you have for some time been aware of them. At least twice in the original thread I list them out and what they say. As a fellow blogger and as a podcaster, I certainly share the desire to space out topical posts, etc. (Of course, you've had several opportunities to respond to the argument outside of your blog.) But because you've hitherto chosen to ignore what I've said, I have had no choice but to assume you choose not to conform your understanding to the authority of Scripture, and as such I'm disinclined to debate any other matter.

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  10. Chris, that post was in response to your views on Acts 10. You are the one who initially brought up the connection between your view and Acts 10, Acts 2, and Joel 2. I did not bring up those passages out of the blue.

    You accuse me of eisegeting my view into Acts 10, even though you've already admitted that the only way Acts 10 can be said to prove a view on salvation IS by eisegesis, since the passage does not explicitly teach about the moment of salvation. That is why this is NOT my primary text, but the reason why it IS your primary text.

    You simply have no single passage that explicitly teaches salvation is prior to water baptism. Meanwhile, you cannot address the explicit teaching of Peter in Acts 2:38, which says water baptism IS for salvation. You claim it can me X, when I have provided overwhelming evidence that the consensus of scholarship says you are wrong. Including many scholars who doctrinally agree with you, but nevertheless admit that it says what I have been saying all along.

    If you want to disagree with Acts 2:38, to interpret it away, that is one thing. But it is not accurate to say the words can legitimately be translated a certain way you say it can. That isn't just my opinion, but the overwhelming consensus of NT scholarship. It says what it says. My view is explicitly taught. It can be pulled directly through exegesis. Your view relies upon eisegesis.

    But we I am repeating myself, which is why I've stopped coming here (I only came here because of a link on a friend's blog). Arguing back and forth doesn't seem like a constructive use of time, especially since you won't address my points until I first agree with you(!).

    Notice how you never actually responded to my actual points how Acts 10, Joel 2, and Acts 2 confirm my view and not yours. If I don't get around to responding to EVERY single point you've brought up, it will be because I don't think they're worth mentioning. I DO intend to, at least indirectly, answer the meat of your points (not as a response to you, but as a positive case for what the Biblical text says).

    If I do not return, it will be because I have no expectation you will meaningfully engage my points on baptism.

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  11. "Chris, that post was in response to your views on Acts 10. You are the one who initially brought up the connection between your view and Acts 10, Acts 2, and Joel 2. I did not bring up those passages out of the blue."

    My argument regarding Acts 10 was never based solely or even primarily upon Acts 2 and Joel. In fact, in no way do I use those passages to connect baptism in the Holy Spirit with salvation; I use them to argue against baptism in the Holy Spirit's being something which died with the first generation of believers, and against its being something above and beyond salvation.

    Rather, and several times now, both in that thread and this one, I've pointed to a multitude of other passages which explicitly say what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit received by Cornelius' household meant for them. You are welcome to ignore that if you like, and you are certainly welcome "not to return" to my blog if you do not wish for my readers to see how you are unable to explain the saving indwelling of the Holy Spirit received by Cornelius' household prior to water baptism. I am not surprised; there is no explanation.

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  12. Just thought I would add this.

    It is in Christ ("in whom") that those of Cornelius' house were said to be sealed in Ephesians 1:13. It was not out of Christ that they were sealed. But we are baptized into Christ, in whom we are sealed. To be in Christ is to be in the kingdom. He has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us INTO THE KINGDOM of the Son He loves, IN WHOM we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. (Col. 1:13-14). We are baptized into Christ (Gal 3:26-27). To put it in other words, we are born into the kingdom; but we are born of water and the spirit (John 3:1-5)

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