tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post1156310750359927327..comments2023-03-05T06:18:48.083-08:00Comments on Theopologetics: To Terry: Unless the Father Draws HimChrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00041718051509830155noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-4713759989734691502010-09-27T22:08:48.701-07:002010-09-27T22:08:48.701-07:00I will provide additional Scriptures to back up th...I will provide additional Scriptures to back up the "way" I've worded what I've said, but again, you still have yet to address the actual text I've exegeted. The Greek word rendered "draw" has a very specific meaning as I've demonstrated; it is not as equivocal as other words we've looked at. And in context, it is absolutely undeniable that the "drawing" done is only done to some, and that all those whom are drawn will come to Jesus Christ. Simply asking questions about other passages--which nevertheless are compatible with the clear teaching of this one--does not succeed in sidestepping this one.<br /><br />If you'll notice, the "learning" spoken of in this passage is done by God. Yes, we know that hearing comes by the Word of God. But who is the one that does the teaching in this passage? God. God through His Holy Spirit opens our hearts to the message preached. All those whose hearts God does not open in this way will reject the message; and all those whose hearts God does open in this way will accept it. There is no way around this in this passage.<br /><br />As for eating His flesh and drinking His blood, it is very clear from the passage that He's speaking metaphorically of belief in Him. A belief He prompts.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00041718051509830155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-37766998276096958882010-09-27T22:05:15.562-07:002010-09-27T22:05:15.562-07:00Regarding John 7:39, I hope you'll take a seco...Regarding John 7:39, I hope you'll take a second look and reconsider your interpretation. These words were spoken prior to Pentecost, at which point the Holy Spirit began operating differently within the New Covenant community than He had in the Old. This is clear from Peter's application of Joel's prophecy in Acts 2. You can't apply the words of John 7 in the way you have; John records Jesus as speaking of the Holy Spirit which the Apostles were later to receive at Pentecost, not the order of salvation for Christians throughout all time.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00041718051509830155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-70220927342506699322010-09-27T22:01:12.937-07:002010-09-27T22:01:12.937-07:00Then if we go further in John 7:39 it says:
"...Then if we go further in John 7:39 it says:<br /><br />"by this He meant the spirit which those who believed in Him were later to receive" You believe first, and then receive the HS.tbolson76https://www.blogger.com/profile/05758330712113404699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-42336624725684744562010-09-27T21:55:34.480-07:002010-09-27T21:55:34.480-07:00You asked if I agree with your statement. It is a...You asked if I agree with your statement. It is a little hard to agree because of the way it is worded. And there aren't specific scriptures backing the "way" you've worded it. Not that they don't exist, you just didn't provide any.<br /><br />As for John 6, I notice it inlcudes the words heard and learned. So, the gospel must be preached, heard, learned & believed. Hearing and learning does not sound like being forced to do something.<br /><br />Then, it gets interesting in just a few verses later He discusses we must eat His flesh and drink His blood to have life.tbolson76https://www.blogger.com/profile/05758330712113404699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-88302956564008619722010-09-27T19:58:52.388-07:002010-09-27T19:58:52.388-07:00Terry, like I already said, even if you're rig...Terry, like I already said, even if you're right about Paul's use of "all" in that passage, it doesn't do any damage to the clear teaching of John 6. God has both His sovereign will which will by necessity come about--such as the universe coming into existence and the drawing of John 6--and His desires which He allows not to come to pass. Theologians have recognized this for a long, long time.<br /><br />As for your if/then statements, those do no damage to the clear teaching of John 6, either. If one continues in the faith, it is because one was chosen, and is then reconciled before God. If one hears His voice, it is because one was chosen by God, and Christ will then fellowship with him. If one receives him, it is because God chose one to do so, and they will then become children of God.<br /><br />I've noticed that nobody has addressed the actual text of John 6 (the portion I exegeted, anyway). No matter how hard one tries, one cannot change the meaning of the word "draws" in this passage. It simply cannot refer to drawing everybody in any sense, for in context Jesus is explaining why some did not believe in Him, and thus they are not drawn. Besides, He goes on to explain that the drawing is done through inward revelation from God.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00041718051509830155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-59685291146554885222010-09-27T19:31:18.428-07:002010-09-27T19:31:18.428-07:00In referencing 1 Tim 2:4, clearly in verse 2 "...In referencing 1 Tim 2:4, clearly in verse 2 "all who are in authority" means everyone who is in authority. So when you get to vs 4 it does not make sense Paul would change the meaning of the same word in the same sentence to another meaning.<br />Also, if God predetermined before creation all who would be saved, then in vs 4 He would essentially be saying, "God desires that all those whom He irrevocably & irresistably saved before time began should be saved". That is overly redundant.<br /><br />I think I see where you are going with this. But,Christ ultimately does draw 'ALL' men to himself in the sense that no one can escape the day of judgement.<br /><br />When Adam fell, death entered the world so now 'ALL' men will die.<br /><br />But when Christ entered the world we were 'ALL' made alive.(Will live forever)<br /> <br />Paul said, "ALL are under the law, both Jew and Gentile", 'ALL' are ultimately subject to Him. At the last day 'EVERY' knee shall bow. In otherwords, 'ALL' will be made subject to Him and then based on the choices we made in our lives, some will go on to eternal life, some on to eternal agony, but 'ALL' have their eternal destiny.<br /><br />What God predestined is that 'ALL' creation comes to oneness in Jesus Christ. That is His will. However, it is conditional upon the choices we make:<br /><br />John 1:12<br />Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, He gave the right to become children of God<br /><br />Col 1:22-23<br />But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— 'IF' you continue in your faith,<br /><br />Rev 3:20<br />'IF' anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.<br /><br />God gives us 'ALL' human beings immortality, whether we desire it or not. By His will 'ALL' individuals will face 1 mutual fate. Either an eternity in His presence or an eternity removed from it; and it is all determined by 'IF' we choose to love Him or reject Him.tbolson76https://www.blogger.com/profile/05758330712113404699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-86733325700580757272010-09-27T17:02:24.208-07:002010-09-27T17:02:24.208-07:00Well, I think the free gift of grace results in th...Well, I think the free gift of grace results in the life spoken of, but yeah. The point is, it's only given to some, those God chooses to give it to.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00041718051509830155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-77100276706057042152010-09-27T15:10:02.470-07:002010-09-27T15:10:02.470-07:00This life he gives to the world is the Grace freel...This life he gives to the world is the Grace freely given, but never earned.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15622460294884202405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-79580226099537797532010-09-27T14:41:28.458-07:002010-09-27T14:41:28.458-07:00What of it? The fact that it says God gives life t...What of it? The fact that it says God gives life to the world? I don't think you're a universalist, so I believe you already know this doesn't mean that God gives this kind of life to every single human being. Giving life to the world simply means that life is given to people throughout it.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00041718051509830155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-47059954259607432602010-09-27T14:38:32.152-07:002010-09-27T14:38:32.152-07:00What of John 6:32-33?What of John 6:32-33?Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15622460294884202405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-77965458575834156952010-09-27T14:16:21.122-07:002010-09-27T14:16:21.122-07:00It doesn't do any damage to that text, for two...It doesn't do any damage to that text, for two reasons. First, as I explained in the text above, the word "all" doesn't necessarily each and every one of, but can instead mean every kind of. Look at the context of what you've quoted: "1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 <b>for kings and all who are in authority</b>, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." So I think what this text is saying is that God desires that all kinds of men be saved, not that each and every human being be saved.<br /><br />Second, and arguably more importantly, God desires in a certain sense all sorts of things that don't happen. He doesn't desire that we sin, for example, and yet we do. Theologians have rightly taught that the Bible differentiates between two "wills" of God. There is sovereign will which by necessity results in His desires becoming reality. For example, the creation of the universe. On the other hand, there are those things that God desires, but which He allows not to happen. One of the visitors to my blog more competent than I am may know the terminology I'm looking for, as I don't remember the words used to describe this concept.<br /><br />So John 6 and 1 Timothy 2 illustrate these two "wills" of God. John 6 tells us God sovereignly decides who will place their faith in the Son. 1 Timothy 2, if it's speaking of "every man" instead of "all kinds of men," as I've posited, is an example of that "will" of God which does not consist of a sovereign decree, but a desire which He allows not to come about.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00041718051509830155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-51261637610472529972010-09-27T14:06:04.781-07:002010-09-27T14:06:04.781-07:00What damage doe that do to 1 Timothy 2:3-4? which ...What damage doe that do to 1 Timothy 2:3-4? which says: <br /><br />3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15622460294884202405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-11435032650308024482010-09-27T14:00:10.578-07:002010-09-27T14:00:10.578-07:00What do you mean by "without knowing?" W...What do you mean by "without knowing?" What this passage teaches is that the nature of man, sinful and wicked from birth ("by nature children of wrath," as Paul puts it elsewhere), is such that no matter how clearly the gospel is presented, we will all reject it. It's who we are. Only when God opens our hearts and minds to the truth of the gospel will we accept it, and all those whom God opens in this fashion will accept it. That's what this passage teaches.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00041718051509830155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-80314874709799779072010-09-27T13:52:05.799-07:002010-09-27T13:52:05.799-07:00you mean that the nature of man is that we will ne...you mean that the nature of man is that we will never exercise that option without knowing, right?Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15622460294884202405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-88451653720532466552010-09-27T13:32:34.674-07:002010-09-27T13:32:34.674-07:00Hi, Aaron. I think we've both at times been le...Hi, Aaron. I think we've both at times been less gentle and respectful than we ought to be, and I, too, will do my best to do better moving forward.<br /><br />I understand what you're saying about the "drawing." The problem is, that neither does justice to the text of John 6, nor its context. Jesus makes it very clear that the "drawing" of which He speaks is not extended to everybody, that those whom are not drawn will not come to Him, and that all those whom are drawn will.<br /><br />As for the freedom to choose, this doesn't undermine that at all. We do, certainly, have the option to follow Him. However, what this text and many other passages make clear is that the nature of man is such that we will never exercise that option.Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00041718051509830155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-22448443938033367892010-09-27T12:50:42.191-07:002010-09-27T12:50:42.191-07:00To add to my first comment, I think that God does ...To add to my first comment, I think that God does draw us to Him, but everyone, not an 'elect' few. He does this in the same He allows Satan to 'draw' us away from God. It is a veritable "tug of war" between Heaven and Hell, and our Souls are the rope. I have not any Scripture to back that up yet, just throwing my opinion at the wall to see if it sticks, so to speak...er...type?Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15622460294884202405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-89173724044557488042010-09-27T12:43:20.855-07:002010-09-27T12:43:20.855-07:00I think this undermines the fact that God gave us ...I think this undermines the fact that God gave us the freedom to choose to either do His will or join Satan's ranks. <br /><br />Also, if I fall into the less gentle and less respectful column, I apologize. I can't promise to always be humble, but I can say I will do my best from now on, and I think everyone should agree.Aaronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15622460294884202405noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-20716620985365096682010-09-27T10:02:38.675-07:002010-09-27T10:02:38.675-07:00The point that I'm making is that in this pass...The point that I'm making is that in this passage and many others, the Bible teaches very clearly that a) no human being makes the decision on their part alone to place their faith in Jesus Christ, b) God chooses to open the minds of only some human beings to the truth of the gospel, and c) every single one of those human beings to which God reveals this truth will place their faith in Him.<br /><br />Would you agree?Chrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00041718051509830155noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8227263107682853517.post-51538519255960469302010-09-27T09:44:57.282-07:002010-09-27T09:44:57.282-07:00That is all very interesting but I don't see w...That is all very interesting but I don't see what is the point you are making?tbolson76https://www.blogger.com/profile/05758330712113404699noreply@blogger.com